289: Animal Friendly Fertiliser

Sarah Wilson [0:01 – 0:32]: This is the Roots and All podcast, and I’m your host, Sarah Wilson. Join me as I talk about all aspects of gardening with some of the top horticulturists from around the world. Hello and welcome to this week’s episode where my guest is Los Angeles based landscaper and fertiliser guru, Erin Reilly. Erin specialises in organic vegetable gardens and native drought tolerant landscapes, and we’re talking today about her work to create fertilisers that are good for plants, people, animals and the planet.

 

Erin Riley [0:32 – 1:10]: I am a vegetable gardener here in Los Angeles, California. I’ve been doing this for about 15 years. I gardened organically with communities and clients, even celebrities. And over time I started ordering my own fertilisers just so I could mix them. You know, I got really geeked out or nerded out on fertiliser. And over time, as I was researching sort of the source of these fertilisers, I came upon how much animal products go into organic fertiliser. And that is what inspired me to start an animal free fertiliser company.

 

Sarah Wilson [1:11 – 1:36]: Yeah, I love it. And I have read some of your stuff and I have to say, I thought I was quite a conscious vegan gardener and I’m quite shocked. But even if you’re not vegan, you know, or vegetarian, I still think that you may not realise the scale of reliance on the animal industry behind fertilisers. So, can you talk a bit about what sort of fertilisers are out there and what they might typically contain? I know that’s a big question, but can you give us an overview?

 

Erin Riley [1:37 – 3:01]: Absolutely. So, in organic fertilisers, and we are talking specifically about organic garden fertilisers, natural products, they contain rendered animals, and those come from a variety of sources. Rendering is basically anything that happens after the slaughter of an animal that turns it into a kind of a secondary non meat product, like organic fertiliser or cosmetics or oil. And so in fertilisers, those materials can be blood meal or bone meal, which sound very obvious, but I think you just don’t really think about it. My grandmother put bone meal in her tomatoes. You know, they need calcium, so that’s what you do. But in addition to blood meal and bone meal, there’s feather meal, poultry meal, crab meal, there’s also lots of ingredients that basically aren’t listed on the bag that go in then to become something they just call a meat meal. And that can be anything from a product known as tankage, which is just whatever is left over in the tanks. So, you know what really alarmed me, in addition to sort of the animal cruelty, part of it was that how can that be regulated? Like, how is that an organic source? And in the end, what the organic industry has decided is that anything that comes from life, and I’m putting that in quotes from life, is considered organic, which I don’t think is what the consumer’s definition is.

 

Sarah Wilson [3:01 – 3:18]: No, absolutely not. I’m sure it isn’t. And all of what you said there throws up so many questions. But firstly, if you do eat meat, you may think, well, okay, while the animal is being slaughtered, is this a good use of the whole of the animal? You know, is there an argument to be made on that front?

 

Erin Riley [3:19 – 4:39]: Well, I think that’s the argument they make sometimes. They call that like a circular economy. I’ve even seen organic fertilisers companies, you know, say, oh, this is how Indians did it like, or indigenous people do it. And I think we all know in reality, we’re quite far from any kind of system like that. And when I really looked at it, for example, leather is a very large industry. It’s probably the largest presently of all of the rendered animal products. And leather is not reliant on the waste of an animal. You know, these big industries don’t just throw their hands up and say, oh, we’ll just use whatever is left over. No, they have quotas, and they have to source a certain amount of material and they negotiate how much it costs. This is very much the point of the industry. You know, this isn’t lower than meat. This could even be above meat. And I think because, you know, the meat industry, big ag might be feeling kind of pinched because of the popularity of plant based diets. They are going to be leaning into rendering products even more because they need a safety net. Right. In case people stop eating meat less, which I doubt is going to happen, but they are going to want to have another product to take the place of meat. So rendered products are very much the point, not waste.

 

Sarah Wilson [4:39 – 4:46]: Okay, so it isn’t necessarily a byproduct. It could be that animals are bred specifically for this purpose.

 

Erin Riley [4:46 – 5:00]: Of course. Right. They have quotas. To me. I mean, we know animals are bred for leather because it’s specific kinds of cattle. Right? There’s expensive leather and there’s cheap leather. So, yeah, it’s an industry in and of itself. To call it a byproduct is a bit misleading. Right.

 

Sarah Wilson [5:00 – 5:16]: Okay. Yeah. Well, that’s a very good clarification to make. The other thing that I was thinking, when you were speaking is, are there any health risks with this, or by the time it reaches kind of fertiliser stage, is anything that could be remotely dangerous or toxic, is that all taken out of it?

 

Erin Riley [5:16 – 6:47]: I don’t think so. This is one of the parts that I find the most alarming. So from the research I read, and the research isn’t from necessarily, like, organic fertiliser, but when you read, for example, you would, I’m sure, be aware of mad cow disease. And that was caused in part by feeding infected cows to cows. Right. They break down cows because that’s, like, organic fertiliser is basically livestock feed. Those two meals are almost identical. Or dog meals or cat food. It’s all sort of animal food, including us. We eat it basically while they’re growing our organic vegetables. So when they broke down cows, rendered cows, and made it into cow food, this whole mad cow disease began. The ecology of. It was very dangerous. And so they have made lots of laws now that you can’t feed cows to cows, but you can still field cows to chickens, for example. But I don’t know that that stuff is actually kept out of fertiliser. I know that it’s kept out of cow food, but does it still make its way down into fertiliser? And then I know the Sierra club did studies where they found forever chemicals in organic fertiliser from, like, sewage sludge and that kind of thing. I mean, we just, like, had an outbreak on walnuts of E. Coli. And walnuts don’t get e. Coli. That’s caused by animal waste being near walnuts or being put on walnuts. So this stuff does make its way through the system.

 

Sarah Wilson [6:48 – 7:18]: The whole thing sounds quite ghastly, really. And the other thing you said was about the nutrient content, and obviously, you get, like, did you call it tankage? It just sounds absolutely hideous. But if you’ve got this stuff that’s just an amalgamation of all these products just mixed together and then used in a fertiliser, can you actually guarantee the nutrient content of it? Do they have to adapt it or, you know, add to it to make it a certain formula? Or is it sometimes just that it’s a bit of an unknown?

 

Erin Riley [7:19 – 8:11]: Well, just like us, animals are nutritious. You know, we are full of nutrients. We consume nutrients, and so we’re full of nutrients. So they can guarantee the nutrients in these products. That’s the one thing that is true when I created my own fertiliser. Part of the process is that you need to do independent lab work. And in fact I took all the inputs that I put in my fertiliser and independently tested them rather than taking the word of the person I bought the input from. And they’re often wrong. But it’s not that there aren’t nutrients. So I think on that front they have it right. But to ask if it’s safe or if anyone’s actually accountable for regulating it, I don’t think so, because the Department of agriculture is what regulates fertiliser. In fact, I’m struggling to get a licence from my fertiliser because it is the department of Ag that hands them out.

 

Sarah Wilson [8:11 – 8:28]: Wow. Well, doesn’t sound great for you. I buy organic veg as much as I can and I think I’m doing the right thing. However, it sounds as if actually by buying organic that I might be actually exacerbating the problem. And why is that?

 

Erin Riley [8:29 – 9:10]: Yeah, I mean, I don’t think we can deny that there is a fiscal relationship between organic fertiliser and animal agriculture. I found it distressing on behalf of vegans, and of course I went vegan during this whole process, that they weren’t able to eat, really in any way that separates itself from the Department of Agriculture. Because really it’s just Department of Animal Agriculture. There really is no independent plant agriculture. We don’t grow vegetables in any way that’s separate from that. And I think we should be able to. I think that’s what people assume, that vegetables are separate from meat and they’re just not when it’s organic.

 

Sarah Wilson [9:11 – 9:14]: Yeah, I mean, you absolutely would assume that, wouldn’t you? Yes. It would be the natural.

 

Erin Riley [9:14 – 9:16]: There’s a department of plant or something.

 

Sarah Wilson [9:17 – 9:26]: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I know you’re speaking sort of specifically about America, but are you aware of the situation kind of globally? Is it similar?

 

Erin Riley [9:27 – 10:24]: Yes. And, you know, and rendering is absolutely an international industry. Rendering. They call it like the quiet industry or the hidden industry. And I would say for good reason. Although now they’re really trying to kind of put on a pr campaign. Major greenwashing there. But I had been reading some rendering periodicals, like their industry magazine, and they talk about how one of the concerns for the industry is that conscious consumers will demand that inputs be organic. And I was like, oh, yeah, because there’s nothing organic about the input. It becomes organic when it hits the bag. Because regulators have said, this is organic, they regulate themselves. And I’m sure that’s the case across the world. These industries really aren’t regulated by government. They’ve made deals. Like, I think the USDA, the department of Ag doesn’t even tour, like, slaughterhouses. Like, I think legally they’re not allowed to.

 

Sarah Wilson [10:25 – 10:50]: It is mind boggling, I have to say. And I was reading, like, a kind of industry standard thing which would basically say, if you’re going to plant plants, and this is ornamental plants, it’s not veg. But the received wisdom is that you break up the soil and you incorporate well rotted manure. And it’s such a pervasive idea. What are the alternatives to using animal products if you want to fertilise your plants?

 

Erin Riley [10:50 – 12:19]: Yeah. And that’s really interesting. You know, the use of manure is going to become very much headline news soon in agriculture and in regenerative organic conversations because there is a slight difference between manure and rendered animals. There’s a potential where you could have rescued animals and use their manure. Right. It’s sort of like, what is the source of these animals? But to your question of what we can use in place of that, you know, compost is the best. You know, and there is, thank God, a lot of community composting that’s taking place now. Now we have to stay conscious because compost is another one of those words that gets thrown around and isn’t really defined. So when how I define compost is something that’s alive. And now I would make it plant based. Right. Because manure is basically alive biologically. That material has life in it. Bacteria and fungi, you know, microorganisms. And so that’s the same thing compost has, but it’s plant based, hopefully. And that becomes from those brown and green materials, you know, they have a cycle of life that creates fungi and bacteria that’s healthy for the soil. So compost is still your best bet. And there are lots of things that people are doing. They call it veganic gardening, and they use a lot of COVID crops. And home gardeners can use that information. You can, home gardener can grow fava beans and turn that into their soil. You can grow plants that feed your soil.

 

Sarah Wilson [12:20 – 12:25]: And in terms of what you’re doing, what is it that you’re actually producing?

 

Erin Riley [12:25 – 14:07]: Yeah. So I wanted to be able to provide an alternative fertiliser because also people get very confused about what fertiliser is versus compost versus, like, even soil. People who know me for years will be like, how’s the soil business? And I’m like, it’s really fertiliser, but that’s fine. I would love to do soils eventually, too, but the product we have this fertiliser, right? Like you said, these are guaranteed nutrients. So those numbers on the bag, those three numbers, nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium, the NPK, that guarantees a certain level of nutrition. So a lot of gardens need that boost of nutrition, especially because soils have, across the world, have become depleted. So we actually really do need to add something, nutrients to the soil. So my fertilisers come from plants and minerals. There’s a lot of things like soy and corn and kelp that can be used for nitrogen. I use neem seed, and then there’s other minerals like rock, phosphorus and potassium sulphate that are organically mined. You know, I’m sure mining is another conversation. We could have some time. You know, we’re using up the earth a lot. But one of the points I like to make is because there’s really been no research into plant based fertilisers. The inputs I have to use in my fertiliser are basically the inputs from this animal based agriculture system. There hasn’t been research done into using plant nutrients as fertiliser like comfrey or nettles. It’s used on veganic farms, for sure, independent veganic farms. But applying that to garden fertiliser hasn’t really been investigated yet. So I’m looking forward to a future where we could come up with all new plant based ingredients.

 

Sarah Wilson [14:08 – 14:36]: It’s got to stand to reason. If you’re using animals as a fertiliser source, then there’s all the attendant inputs with that, such as feed and water, medicines, maybe, all sorts of things that go into keeping the animals healthy, keeping them sustained. But if you’re growing plants, presumably the inputs to keep those plants alive and growing is much less. So the whole plant fertiliser idea has to be lower carbon footprint and more sustainable, presumably, than animals.

 

Erin Riley [14:37 – 15:16]: Absolutely. Because, you know, you look at these organic fertiliser bags and you would think, you know, they were born out of some nirvana, you know, the story that is told even just by the packaging. Right. And there’s no indication of, like you said, the carbon footprint that comes from all of animal agriculture that has syphoned down into that bag of fertiliser, that has a backstory where if you’re gardening veganically or coming up with plant based inputs, the very act of growing those plants, like, adds to the soil. You know, we’re not depleting the soil by growing these fertilisers. We’d actually be feeding the soil. We’re growing the fertilisers in.

 

Sarah Wilson [15:17 – 15:34]: That is actually one of the things I kind of struggle with sometimes, if you have a growing system whereby you’re continually taking from the soil, so can you just explain how if you’re harvesting and taking the stuff away, how at the same time you’re replenishing the soil or increasing the nutrient content?

 

Erin Riley [15:34 – 16:22]: Yeah. Here in where I live in LA, we can garden all year round. So we’re a little bit different than most. But a lot of people where they garden, you know, there’s a point where your garden is fallow or frozen, you know, so always having something planted in there is one of the tenants of veganic gardening. So you would always have some kind of. They could call it a green manure sometimes. So that’s just a plant, like a fava bean or mustard or comfrey or whatever daikon radish that you’re growing for the sake of feeding your soil, not necessarily for a crop, for yourself. So you would grow that in your soil, and then you could chop it down and just lay it on top of your soil or put it in your composter. But that is a way in which you can add back to the soil in between of crop rotations.

 

Sarah Wilson [16:23 – 16:37]: I was thinking as well about the scalability of the whole thing. Obviously, big agriculture is churning out a lot of fertiliser, which is then being used at a kind of farm level. Is it feasible that you could do that with plant fertilisers as well?

 

Erin Riley [16:38 – 17:14]: Yeah, I think absolutely. Especially just to have one. I’m not expecting everything to change, and that’s why my focus is on the home gardener, because that’s my personal experience, the farming. There are a lot of people doing that, thank goodness. Cleve west and Jimmy Vidal, you know, they’re spreading the word about these issues on a much larger scale and in regards to farming. But I was kind of hoping to talk to the home gardener, like you and me, because I think we’re also very good advocates. So, you know, I think anything that raises our consciousness is a good thing. You know what I mean? And that’s always sort of scalable, right?

 

Sarah Wilson [17:14 – 17:24]: Yeah, absolutely. And have you conducted any studies into how well the plants respond to the plant fertilisers? Are there any additional benefits to in terms of plant health and growth?

 

Erin Riley [17:25 – 19:08]: Yeah. So when I first found out about what was inorganic fertiliser, you know, I don’t know if, like, what happened, because I was. I handle the inputs with my hands, you know, and it’s almost like they told me a story through my hands. I just. I couldn’t kind of ignore what I was handling anymore. So I knew these hands were going to only be touching plants and minerals from now on, as well as my students hands. So I integrated all my gardens to plant based, and they did great. To be honest with you, initially, they didn’t do great. And we went on a very long soil studies, did all kinds of things. Again, like I said earlier, I actually tested, independently tested every inputs that came from other companies to make sure that what they said was accurate. So it did take actually a long time. So it was nothing against the plants. It was actually more that the inputs weren’t what they said they were. Even I found out the soil I was using did not come with the guarantees. I actually was able to sue the soil company that I bought the soil from and had all my money returned, because what they said on the bag was not what the soil had. So that was an interesting journey. But I did find that the plants did just as good a job. And, you know, if you talk to people about fertiliser, there’s more than what those three numbers on the bag are. You know, the NPK is what is recognised as the most important parts of fertiliser, but there’s also micronutrients, and that’s why we love organic gardening. It comes in with all the micronutrients. There’s just a lot more to fertiliser than just the chemistry of it. It’s about how it’s biologically integrated into the soil, and that’s very hot in organic gardening right now. You know, microbes and such. So we have microbes in our fertiliser. Fulvic acid, humic acid. So those are soil builders, not just plant feeders.

 

Sarah Wilson [19:08 – 19:17]: And are the microbes able to survive the process of harvesting them and packaging them, sending them out, and then being applied to the end user’s garden?

 

Erin Riley [19:18 – 19:57]: Well, this is such a new area in fertilisers. The best I can say is, I hope so. They are in almost all fertiliser now, these microbes. And, you know, I order mine from the same place big fertiliser companies order theirs, even though we’ve put these in fertilisers. And of course, I’ve done studies like, I know my compost. I mean, you can measure microbes. So there are a lot of microbes in there. But how long they last is not really something people know yet, especially how long they last in a bag, as opposed to, like, in the soil where they’re supposed to be. So right now, they say they expire in a year. But that’s, I think, just an educated guess on everybody’s part.

 

Sarah Wilson [19:57 – 20:10]: I guess if you can have something like ecolipe assist, you can have something that’s a more positive element, or bacteria, I presume that is. But presumably you can have something that persists in an organic fertiliser as well.

 

Erin Riley [20:10 – 20:42]: I think that’s a great take. Yes. If our microbes can last as long as E. Coli and salmonella will be good. Yeah. And you know, the thing is, we’re also. That’s why we add the compost to the soil. Right. We’re not completely relying on microbes in a bag alone. We’re going to also add some compost and that’s actually going to be the life starter. And that’s what you can do with compost tea, too. And you could do the same thing with my fertiliser. It’s what people do with, like fermented plant juice. Any kind of aerated liquid fertiliser is going to contain microbes. So that’s also a wonderful thing people can do.

 

Sarah Wilson [20:42 – 20:46]: And what sort of format are your products available in?

 

Erin Riley [20:46 – 22:10]: Well, I made a dry granular form, so that’s like our traditional fertiliser. Right. That goes into the soil. And then I also did a soluble, because I take care of a lot of gardens and I love being able to water and fertilise at the same time. It’s just so much easier. So I really wanted to have a soluble. So we also have that. And it’s interesting because the soluble is one of the ways I sort of found an entry into how to make fertiliser. There’s a lot of hydroponic farmers now, I think that one, that’s because of soil problems, it’s because of real estate problems. But, you know, again, it’s also because of the marijuana industry. You know, the cannabis industry uses hydroponics for the most part. And so they’ve done a lot of research on what is and isn’t soluble. And no matter how far they ground down an animal, it would not pass through the philtre. And they have all these philtres in hydroponics because they don’t want those materials clogging up the system. So they had to figure out ways to get nitrogen, especially without using animals. And so they pioneered using corn and soy and other agricultural byproducts to get through those philtres. And when I discovered that, I just applied a lens of veganism and animal liberation and safety, that was my lens, not like what passes through a philtre. But it was interesting. They had basically already come up with a tonne of products that fit the bill.

 

Sarah Wilson [22:10 – 22:39]: I think that that’s quite sort of obviously science based. And most people are focused, especially if they’re back garden gardeners, they’re focused on results. And I do wonder if there has been traditionally kind of forays made into plant based fertilisers where people have not seen such good results. Do you think there might be a little bit of resistance, especially from people who used to use in traditionally animal based fertilisers and seeing decent results from them?

 

Erin Riley [22:40 – 23:45]: Yeah, I mean, I think there’s a lot of resistance. I’m sure. As you know, gardeners can be a little prickly, a little defensive, maybe. You know, they don’t like to be told things. I like to visit a lot of Facebook gardening groups because I really like seeing where people stand, you know, like where they are and how they feel and. And what their experiences have been. So I do think it’s going to be a bit of a long process to educate people and have them be open to trying new things. And that’s the case across the board. If they’re chemical fertilisers or organic fertilisers. Yeah, it’s a bit of a learning curve. They’re definitely a good product. You know, the plant based fertilisers are definitely effective, but plants are also not a. You know, you just can’t put a band aid on a plant problem because it could be nutrition, it could be humidity, you know, it could be so many different things that go into assessing whether or not you’re having successes or failures in your garden. And a lot of that, too, is just the gardener’s perception. Right. Sometimes their plants are doing great, but they’re complaining that their plants aren’t doing great.

 

Sarah Wilson [23:45 – 24:21]: Yeah, I do get that. So I tend to normally sit on the fence a little bit. I think everybody knows that I am vegan and, you know, I do kind of champion animals and wildlife as and when I can. But I do feel that even I was quite shocked by what I read in your literature. And sometimes shocking people is a good thing, and it does make them think about what they’re doing, about their actions. And you’ve already made a fantastic case as to why we should be looking at plant based fertilisers. But if you really wanted to say to people, look, this is important, this is why you need to do this, what would you say?

 

Erin Riley [24:21 – 24:59]: I would say that there’s literally nothing more important than growing our own food this is about more than just animals. The whole decentralisation of the food system is necessary for the sake of the planet, for the sake of safety, and just for the sake of food justice. Moving into a future where everyone has the information to grow their own food, that’s really where I’m coming from. And so I think it’s incredibly vital. One, that we’re told the truth about what we’re growing our food in, and that two, people feel empowered to make their own choices, and that can always start on the home garden level.

 

Sarah Wilson [25:01 – 25:51]: Thank you very much to Erin and thank you as well for listening. If you like this interview, I recommend checking out episode 21 Biochar with Craig Sams released on the 20 November 2018 and episode 117 about probiotics for the soil with Susan Allen of microbes released on the 5 October 2020. You can download or listen to the podcast direct from the website Rootsandall dot co dot UK. Please also cheque out my Patreon where you can make a one off donation or take out a monthly subscription to help support the podcast. Because if you enjoy the show, please help it continue. I also have a Gofundme where you can make a one off donation. Even a one off donation of one pound helps and I’ll be really grateful for your support. So please go to Patreon or Gofundme and search for roots in all podcast.f